Curse

Mercury Rivenswift · Jun 01, 2005, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Rangers cant be buffed easily. They dont specialise, and so by buffing them they get to do everything well, as opposed to know, when they can do everything below par. Take healing.... at current healing spring allows a ranger to aoe heal for 50 health every two seconds for 10 seconds.. 500 health. Not bad. What if it was buffed to 100 health every 2 seconds.... Noone would need a monk, a couple of guys with healing spring and your in the money.
Consider damage. Say they made it so that expertise raised damage.. at current you can do about 70 damage a hit. Then, it would be doing about 110! Screw that, 4 hits and your dead..... tigers fury for faster.
Finally, consider interrupts. At the moment, the air time makes it tricky, but say there interrupts were half the casting time. Notice the ongoing trend here? Rangers can do everything, just not that well. Buff them so they can do everything well and they suddenly become the only class worth playing....

Then the solution is to nerf monk healing. That would lower need for monks and warriors and make rangers a more viable option in real pvp.

edit- or maybe it would just make parties get 4 monks instead of 3 to make up for the nerf thereby removing the one possible slot for a ranger.

Ensign · Jun 01, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

The solution is to stop playing garbage Ranger builds. Rangers are the most equipment-dependant class. They are also the most build-sensitive class. If you build your Ranger badly he *will* suck. If you try running with the wrong equipment you're going to stink.

A bad Elementalist will still nuke effectively, bad Monk builds still heal. Bad Warriors will run in deep and not deal damage, but are still annoying. Bad Rangers do next to nothing, and there are a lot of bad Rangers. The fact that they're one of the most popular classes, but that I can readily buy Superior Expertise runes for 15k tells me everything I need to know about the play of your typical Ranger. 14 Marksmanship, 9 Expertise, an Elemental Composite Bow, no attack speed buff, lots of downtime from Preparations...do I need to go on?

The problem with the Ranger is not with the class itself, at least as far as potential goes. The problem exists solely with how difficult it is to realize that potential compared to the other, more popular classes, and with the player trying to make his Ranger effective.

I still don't understand this 'need' for Warriors. What exactly does a PvP team need Warriors for? As far as I'm concerned they're completely expendable in the Hall of Heroes, and you don't really need more than 1 on those maps where they are useful for their armor (Relic, priest-killing maps). I've run several teams without Warriors in the past and will continue to do so, that class is *badly* overrated in PvP.

Peace,
-CxE

Chev of Hardass · Jun 01, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Gotta stick my 2 cents in here too.

Ensign, as I have come to realize in a couple of threads(the one about the PvE guilds wining about the price of sigils), is absolutely right.

In PvE a ranger stays back and uses ranged attacks. They would also make the best target callers, But, most I have played with are trying to be closer to the target than the warriors and think they do good damage.

Their pets, if they live through the first battle, get in the way of a good monk protecting warrior (me) and only take healing power away from the monk, because you neglect them. Then, when they do die, they don't get ressed. So why did you waste two skill spots again?

I don't know the nature ritual that was cast by someone lately, but it reduced healing spells by some unhealthy amount, why would you do that to yourself just to cast spells a tiny bit faster.

Come on rangers, I am building a ranger (still in pre-searing(bears are hard to get)), if I don't play with any quality rangers I will have to quit letting rangers into my groups.

I would rather have three warriors in PvE than two and a ranger, but I would still rather be the only Warrior even in PvE. Ball em up and call in the Elementalist.

Epinephrine · Jun 01, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

Their pets, if they live through the first battle, get in the way of a good monk protecting warrior (me) and only take healing power away from the monk, because you neglect them. Then, when they do die, they don't get ressed. So why did you waste two skill spots again?

I don't know the nature ritual that was cast by someone lately, but it reduced healing spells by some unhealthy amount, why would you do that to yourself just to cast spells a tiny bit faster.

Come on rangers, I am building a ranger (still in pre-searing(bears are hard to get)), if I don't play with any quality rangers I will have to quit letting rangers into my groups.

Whoa. First, any ranger who is using a pet seriously should be using more than 2 slots. If they are using a pet well you should keep it alive, it's doing a ton for your team. If they are running it on 2 slots it's just an extra body soaking some damage and a really low grade DoT.

Nature rituals are a double edged sword - no ranger should be casting them blindly. They affect the whole party, as well as the enemy. I could have kicked the ranger who put a favourable wind down when facing 6 skeleton Archers and a necrid horseman outside of Bergen's whatever it's called. You step out the door and hand your opponent extra damage - sure, you get +6, to your damage, but they get +6 each. Rituals are great but need to fit the circumstances as well as the team. Running something you think is helpful could screw your teammates - turning all damage to fire might make your armour shine, but it also means that the Life Bond on the monk just stopped working, and the necromancer's Order of Pain and Mark of Pain no longer deals any extra damage. They are great tools and should be used properly. That said, if the party is flexible and discusses skill choices before heading out it can be really useful to run rituals.

I think that the problem is that harder classes to play require better players to make them work.

Mercury Rivenswift · Jun 01, 2005, 07:20 PM // 19:20

The potential of a ranger is nowhere near that of other classes. This game gives you a limited number of skills and attribute points. This means that in order to be successful, you must specialize. Rangers do not specialize very well. Why some people refuse to accept this is beyond me.

Epinephrine · Jun 01, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Because Rangers specialise well. They just don't specialise in what you want to do. I don't need to convince you that you need a Ranger on your team, but the first time you face a good ranger you'll realise that you don't want one on their team.

Beqxter · Jun 01, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Don't know why, but I do see a lot of rangers out there. Probably people don't understand how hard they are to play, since on the surface they don't seem like a support class (like mesmers do) but like another attack class - warriors with a hundred-foot swing.

Now I don't claim to be an expert at playing my ranger, but I do claim to understand the challenges in playing one, and am spending hours in arena practicing trying to meet those challenges. It's a lot of balls to keep in the air at one time.

And I love it. It's hard, but a lot of fun. It bums me out that there seem to be so many people out there misplaying the class and mucking it up for those of us trying to help the team effectively. I've played with and against rangers who impressed the hell out of me, and can't wait for observation mode so I can watch what they're doing a bit more closely.

That said, how many people do I see misplaying warriors? TONS. More often than not in random groups, the Wa/Mo will ignore pings, map drawings and basically the whole team and run off into the opposing team, forcing us to either follow him and let the enemy choose the ground or lose 1/4 of our team. Grrr.

I suspect the vast majority of people misplaying the classes do not read this forum, however, and we're spending most of our time preaching to the converted. Sadly.

Avraamii · Jun 02, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

any class is going to seem broken if not played well. PvE or PvP. I know myself a 20 R/E. I can and have taken wars down 1 on 1 in PvP. with no problem. barbed trap, dust trap, pin down, hunters shot. a little apply poison, then when they are hurting and hobbling i ingnite arrows and dual shot. doing good damage, ive got high marksmanship and a max damage bow. not to mention expertise stances thrown in the mix, the war can do nothing to me. its like taking candy from a baby. theyre are so many variables...ok lets throw in serpents quickness. 33% faster skill recharge. a properly built ranger is a real bitch. Especially in PvP.

Xellos · Jun 02, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Rangers aren't bad at all. If a ranger couldn't kill you as a monk ele, there's something wrong with them, not the class. As if Warriors weren't easy enough to kill, any caster class should be a simple pluck of a string for a ranger worth his salt. The reasons rangers suck, is cause a lot of the people who play them suck.

So distracting shot is a needed skill? Sorry to burst your bubble, but this isn't 1v1. Second, hitting the distracting shot doesn't guarantee the monks healing is off. Thirdly, concussion shot requires you to stay on a monk. That's plain stupid as a caster shutdown. Caster killer? Please, I might as well nuke them and save myself 30-60 seconds.

Rangers are great, no doubt. But don't all of a sudden think they can "solo a monk". That's just absurd. Anything that isn't completely anti-caster built cannot kill a healing monk 1v1, defense > offense in this game.

The only thing I can see really different for rangers is that they gain a fairly larger amount of height damage in GvG then Tombs. About the only place in tombs that's high is the defender stairs, and it's not so easy doing it if your not the defender.

At the moment, I'm probably still in the newbie ranger group. 14 expertise, 12 marks, then either switch between 120 shots or 9 second tigers fury, you name it. I still don't see them as that great of a damage dealer or annoyer. Their hybrid, and when your team is consisted of cornerstone specialists, a ranger deosn't fit. I rather see a team of 3-5 rangers, that would make more sense, since everyone is more well rounded, rather then a ranger who goes with a balthazaar aura team or a air ele team and wonders why he isn't fitting in. But hey, like I said, I'm clueless. I'm still waiting for Samas friend's to teach me :P

JoDiamonds · Jun 02, 2005, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xarian

Rather than asking why rangers suck, you should perhaps be asking why they have no way to deal with enchantments outside of a crappy nature spirit...

Thankfully, the designers are smart and have put limitations into each profession, as well as advantages.

If all classes could do all things, that would be extremely boring (and unnecessary, of course).

JoDiamonds · Jun 02, 2005, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Night Daftshadow

i find it easy to solo with my ranger/monk at level 12. either with henchmen or with humans, it's a breeze.

Um. Not to pick nits, but "solo" generally implies all alone. Henchmen are fine company, but you aren't REALLY soloing at that point.

JoDiamonds · Jun 02, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defafnyr

I will take your word for it then.

The skill description does NOT change, but if enough of you say that in REALITY it does change in-game during use, that the energy bar uses less, then that's proof enough. But you have to understand, I had to have people who have actually TESTED this post their results.

There are way too many threads and posts where people are spouting opinion as fact, or based on a 5th level character and have no real experience with the "facts" they are trying to use to prove their points.

I've read enough of Epi's posts to respect his results. No offense to anyone else. It's just a bit hard sometimes to separate the opinions from facts without getting info from someone who can back up their opinion.

While I respect a healthly amount of skepticism, I also see no reason to immediately assume most people are liars (and practically call them that).

Additionally, the mouse-over text for Expertise says what it does. While there's too often information missing from attribute or skill descriptions (i.e. Smiting holy damage ignores armor), usually what's there is at least mostly accurate.

Anyway, this isn't intended as a flame, but it seems just as silly to assume people are liars as it is to assume they are always telling the truth.

Neo-LD · Jun 02, 2005, 10:19 PM // 22:19

for the last time people, HE GOT THE MESSAGE. Please no one post here saying anything like "wtf expertise reduces mana cost what are you stupid?" again.

Chev of Hardass · Jun 02, 2005, 11:29 PM // 23:29

So, what steller Ranger will be the one to create a description of how to effectively play a ranger in PvP?

I am not in that position, but I would like to read something like that so I could build a quality character when I do build a ranger.

Xellos · Jun 02, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chev of Hardass

So, what steller Ranger will be the one to create a description of how to effectively play a ranger in PvP?

I am not in that position, but I would like to read something like that so I could build a quality character when I do build a ranger.

:P That's what I'm wondering.

Erace · Jun 02, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Rangers are a very good class with the right build they can pack a fair
bit of damage., im a damage dealer type but i pack a few "mess up skills" for the enemy, Image Burden is a big help because i can keep hitting enemy with arrows without them going to far out of range.

Anyway, rangers may not be the best class, but they are excellent mage killers with the right skills. I love ranger to be honest.

Beqxter · Jun 02, 2005, 11:32 PM // 23:32

There are some ranger builds outlined here that people have made work for them: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=17412.

Erace · Jun 02, 2005, 11:40 PM // 23:40

a good ranger PVP character...

Disrupter: Ranger/Mesmer: build mainly on Marksmenship, Domination Magic and Wilderness Survivial. Get a good bow, resonable damage, but it must be fast or skills will have to be VERY accurate with the timing, i found that very hard to do so i changed build.

useful skills would be, Concussion shot, Pin Down, Deliberatin Shot, Crippling Shot, etc
and for mesmer skills; Power Leak, Power Spike, Shame, etc

Try to learn the times of monks healing spells and any other common skills enemy casters use that could be vital to their survivial, if u disrupt them, the enemy is stranded.

another possibility i thought was quite effective is:

Damage Dealer: Ranger/Elementalist: again, Wilderness Survival and Marksmenship are what u should work on, maybe Expertise if u have good skills for it, and pick 1 element to focus on, and chose damage dealing spells, Fire Storm, Flare, etc

I found Ranger/Monk also works well in PVP because u can survive a hell of a lot longer and help ur teamates aswell.

(also a little tip, dont waste skills on beastmastery, it gets in the way and u could put those skill slots to much better use.)

I hope this helps u guys and i hope u have fun using Ranger, i sure as hell am.

Kishin · Jun 02, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

If you're a Ranger/Monk, please, please, please don't try to be a healer. You don't have the energy or the regen for it. Maybe you could toss out a Protection every once in awhile, but healing is something you should not be doing. Focus yourself on other aspects to help your team.

-Eirion

Erace · Jun 02, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

I never said constantly heal, but a cure here in there wouldnt go a miss, if some1 is in a tight spot i think the best waste of energy would be a heal rather than a damaging skill on an enemy.